This Hacker News discussion explores the multifaceted nature of "pig-butchering" scams and related fraudulent activities, highlighting victim vulnerabilities, scam methodologies, and the broader societal implications.
Sophistication and Patience of Scammers
A recurring theme is the surprising sophistication and extreme patience of scammers, which often makes their operations highly effective and difficult to detect.
- "The bond phase showed that scammers had tremendous patience; this phase lasted anywhere from 3 to 11 months before the scammer moved on to the next stage of the scam." (qnleigh)
- "When I spoke to her on a video call, it was the same person from the photos. She was even wearing the dress that matched a photo she had sent earlier in the day." (qnleigh)
- "She did not push me to invest, or ask for money. She seemed genuinely interested in me and we spoke for nearly 6 months before she even brought up investments; it all seemed so real and organic." (qnleigh)
This contrasts with a perception of scams as quick, "ham-fisted" operations. "0cf8612b2e1e" noted, "I had been thinking that these were 1-2 month, ham-fisted operations: establish contact and rush to grab the cash from the gullible rube. To string along the target for a year shows dedication completely separate from the pedestrian scams you normally encounter." The discussion also drew parallels to long-term confidence-building tactics used in other contexts. "madaxe_again" commented, "Madoff spent nearly four decades building confidence."
Victim Vulnerability Beyond Demographics
While one might assume older individuals or those with lower education levels are primary targets, the discussion emphasizes that vulnerability can strike anyone, regardless of age, education, or intelligence.
- "I’m surprised that so many of the 26 participants in the paper’s study were young and well-educated, with a mean age of 48. I would have guessed a much older group of victims." (sema4hacker)
- "The cons play the statistics, and usually target people that have other issues in their life... Yes, the scams actually work on smart people too sometimes... It is not about education or IQ level, but rather if cons target someone currently vulnerable." (Joel_Mckay)
Personal anecdotes illustrate how life circumstances can create opportune moments for scammers. "jajko" shared a harrowing experience during a period of uncertainty with his residence permit in Switzerland, where the stress and fear made him susceptible to a sophisticated police impersonation scam. "The scammers had caught me in this period of fear of getting deported, ruining efforts of past 15 years and my whole family lives... But then came the moment when all this could be solved if I just went to the shop and bought... Apple gift card. LOL. But man I felt extremely vulnerable and under tremendous stress during those few hours."
Similarly, "jan_Inkepa" recounted a friend's experience: "Yeah, I remember a friend getting a call during coworking and her face just went white, and after the call she told us that was the tax people calling about irregularities... we all bought it - there was no sober 'oh yeah it's a scam' advice from us - it was really perfectly timed, and took a day or to for her to reason through that it must be a scam."
The idea that everyone is vulnerable was echoed by "alexdbird": "We are all vulnerable at some point. I'd even go as far as saying we all fall for something at some point. Even if it's something small the psychological effect can be large, and there can be a lot of shame, so many do not share their experience."
The Human Element and Exploitation of Trust
Scammers meticulously build relationships and exploit trust, often simulating genuine emotional connections over extended periods. This "bonding phase" is critical to their strategy.
- "It seemed legitimate, there was no reason to think that it could be fake – if she could be a scammer, so could any of my actual friends." (qnleigh)
- "According to recent research [23], these scams have resulted in losses of nearly 75 billion dollars since 2020." (qnleigh)
The discussion also touched upon the deceptive use of technology, including AI-generated content for profile photos and deepfakes in communication. "wodenokoto" mentioned seeing a YouTube video about scam operations: "I saw a YouTube who had planted a mole inside one of these farms. Each guy ran something like 10 WhatsApp on his PC and when needed they had girls in a waiting room 'on call' to do FaceTime."
The Brutal Reality of Scam Operations and Human Trafficking
A disturbing aspect revealed in the discussion is the involvement of actual human trafficking and forced labor in operating these scam centers, particularly in Southeast Asia.
- "They are using actual slaves, not 'wage slaves'. They kidnap people, lured for work in Thailand, and take them to Myanmar/Burma, where there is a civil war ongoing and a form of lawlessness; while there is a relatively good internet connectivity and electricity. They beat people and force them to do this." (karel-3d)
- "There are token rewards for successes and punishments, sometimes extreme, for low productivity. If a slave is seen as having no worth to the endeavour and cannot be trafficked, they will sometimes be killed as a warning to the others that productivity is expected." (K0balt)
"karel-3d" also pointed out the origin and primary targets: "It's mostly run by Chinese. (But they scam Chinese too. It originated as scamming older single Chinese ladies, actually.)" This sparked a debate, with "em500" suggesting the primary targets are Chinese due to language and cultural fluency of perpetrators and workers, while "Theodores" countered, "Cyprus was where we got scammed from. I think there might be a bit of 'yellow peril' going on in your imagination."
The discussion also highlighted the role of legitimate businesses in facilitating these scams. "Theodores" expressed frustration with Zendesk being used by scam operations: "I am not happy that Zendesk is being used to basically rob people and I am minded to write up the whole sorry saga here just to inspire developers to steer their companies away from the Zendesk product. They didn't shoot my dad, they just sold the gun."
Societal Parallels and the Nature of Belief
The conversation broadened to explore societal parallels, drawing connections between scamming, cults, and even political movements.
- "I knew some Scientologists in the late nineties, and there are many parallels... Something very eye opening is know precisely who L Ron Hubbard is, what kind of person he was, and nonetheless seeing a real religion building up around him made me realise that all of the major religions must have started similarly." (jiggawatts)
- "Watching Trump's followers turning MAGA into a new political religion gives me the same heavy feeling of dismay." (jiggawatts)
- "Politics in general has a lot of parallels to religion. People need to segment into belief groups, and politics is the new church." (mothballed)
This theme suggests that the psychological mechanisms underlying susceptibility to scams can overlap with those that drive adherence to ideological or religious groups, often rooted in a search for meaning and belonging.
The "Pig Butchering" Terminology and Victim Sensitivity
A point of contention and discussion was the term "pig butchering" itself, with some feeling it is disrespectful to victims, who already often experience shame and guilt.
- "I have a family member falling for these on a regular basis. In their case it’s possibly tied to mental health issues... It would be nice to find a name that is a little more respectful to the victims. I can tell you victims already have guilt/shame for falling for these things. I would send them the article but don’t want to call them 'pigs' on top of what they have already suffered." (shireboy)
"nomilk" provided the etymology of the term: "The term comes from fraudsters referring to their victims as 'pigs' – those they gradually 'fatten up' by luring them into a fake romance or friendship before 'butchering' them by convincing them to invest, often in fake cryptocurrency schemes." INTERPOL has also urged an end to the term due to its harmful impact on victims.
Proposed Solutions and Broader Implications
The discussion touched upon potential interventions and broader societal changes needed to combat these scams.
- "We should teach/learn resisting scams in school. Far more useful than any other subject." (M95D)
- "The question is, what can YOU do now to avoid risk to your own estate once you are old and start losing your mental faculties?" (foobarian)
However, the complexity of these operations, often involving corruption at various levels and organized crime syndicates, makes direct intervention challenging. "The corruption goes way beyond local cops, and in Myanmar probably involves the government directly. Whole cities are being built for scamming." (shellfishgene) The discussion also acknowledged the role large financial systems like cryptocurrency play as an enabler due to their relative anonymity and lack of regulation.