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Essential insights from Hacker News discussions

I bought the cheapest EV, a used Nissan Leaf

Original Article

Hacker News Discussion

EV Design and Aesthetics

A recurring theme is the distinctive design of EVs, with users debating whether this is due to engineering necessity or deliberate aesthetic choice.

  • Engineering Constraints and Opportunities: Some users suggest that EV designs are different because they don't have the same constraints as ICE vehicles.

    • "EV's look like EV's because they don't have the same constraints on space that ICEV's do. There is no engine in the front/back, no water pump, no oil pump, no water cooled radiator, no starter motor... so on so on. There's also a great big battery under the floor pan and no gas tank." - sgt101
    • "They are also heavier, so need different set ups in order to handle decently." - sgt101

  • Aesthetic Choice and Market Perception: Others argue that the "weird" styling is a conscious decision by manufacturers to make EVs stand out, a strategy that Tesla's more conventional designs initially defied.

    • "That wouldn't explain the unorthodox color schemes lots of smaller EVs like the i3 have. It really seems they are made uglier 'on purpose'." - bzzzt
    • "No. It’s 100% a design choice by the manufacturer to make them look weird." - clysm
    • "Even with the benefits of EV packaging, manufacturers chose to make them “different” on purpose, which really put off the vast majority of buyers. Tesla had so much success because they were practically the first manufacturer to make something look somewhat normal and have good stats." - clysm
    • "I think the Tesla looking like a normal car is because their design language hasn't changed in forever." - VBprogrammer
    • "Rsynnott: VW's first-gen EVs, the eGolf and later eUp, looked basically just like the Golf and Up. This lead people to believe that VW did not make electric cars (a lot of people thought the ID.3/4 were their first). The market wants electric cars to be a bit weird-looking." - rsynnott

  • Evolution of EV Design: Some comment on how ICE car designs are now adopting elements previously seen in EVs, suggesting a blurring of lines.

    • "I've found myself taking a second look at a bunch of ICE cars recently as they've all started copying elements from electric car design..." - VBprogrammer

EV Driving Dynamics and Performance

The discussion touches on the perceived advantages and disadvantages of EV driving dynamics, particularly acceleration and handling.

  • Handling Advantages: The low center of gravity due to the battery placement is frequently cited as a significant benefit.

    • "They tend to handle better than ICE cars due to the low centre of mass (also the fact the big mass - the battery - is firmly bolted to the frame and not wobbling around on rubber mounts like an engine does). These are both big advantages in terms of dynamics." - HPsquared
    • "Couple that with the much faster powertrain response and many options to do torque vectoring to each wheel (individual motors on sports models) and it's an easy win for EVs." - HPsquared

  • Performance Criticisms: Counterarguments suggest that the performance advantage is overstated and limited to initial acceleration.

    • "People way overstate the 'dynamics' advantages of EVs" - jonfw
    • "Yes EVs can keep their weight low, but it's a lot more weight to deal with." - jonfw
    • "Yes EVs have excellent 0-60, but that's just because they have a great launch. Even doing a 5-60 pull removes the EV advantage. Starting from highway speeds? EVs start to look real slow." - jonfw
    • "There are some good traits to EVs but, outside of launching hard in street car trim, performance is not one of them." - jonfw

  • Low-Speed Twitchiness and Suspension: Some users report an uncomfortable or "twitchy" low-speed experience in certain EVs.

    • "That 0-10mph response is way too twitchy in most EVs i've ridden. The old teslas were not like this. I'm not sure what package my friends model 3 is or if it comes down to his lead foot but I feel nauseous in that car. Its a combination of that instant torque and the suspension sort of feeling like one of those play horses on a spring you see in playgrounds." - asdff
    • "There's something wrong with your friend's model 3. If I stand on my accelerator it goes straight (if set straight) and the suspension (set on sport) is hard." - sgt101

EV Battery Longevity and Management

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around battery health, charging habits, and the degradation concerns associated with EVs, particularly older models like the Nissan Leaf.

  • Charging Habits for Battery Health: Best practices for maintaining battery longevity are a common topic.

    • "Limiting the number of QCs (Quick Charges / DC Fast Charge), as this heats up the uncooled Leaf battery, degrading it slightly each time, especially on hotter days" - Xenoamorphous
    • "Keeping the charge between 50-80% when manageable" - Xenoamorphous
    • "Charging up to 100% at least once a month, and letting it 'top off' to rebalance the pack for at least a few hours afterwards" - Xenoamorphous
    • "Not driving like a maniac, despite having more torque in this car than I've ever had in any of my previous cars" - Xenoamorphous
    • "This kind of thing (minus the driving like a maniac bit) is what puts me off EVs. I guess it's unavoidable?" - Xenoamorphous

  • Leaf Battery Degradation Concerns: The Nissan Leaf's passively cooled battery and its impact on longevity are frequently mentioned.

    • "This is completely avoided and not my experience. This is only because the leaf is not actively cooled." - guepe
    • "Most ev do not suffer from such difficult management of battery and have a computer dedicated to cool / heat and keep battery in healthy temps." - guepe
    • "They do degrade over time but very, very slowly. Absolutely not like phones. Mine has 25k miles and zero degradation yet." - guepe
    • "formerly_proven: Even then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014." - formerly_proven
    • "gambiting: A VW e-Up(and its siblings, Skoda Citigo EV and Seat Mii Electric) all have passively cooled batteries but owners don't report much if any battery degradation even on the first gen models which are over 10 years old now." - gambiting
    • "Rsynnott: The problems with this car are all around the battery pack (though honestly these problems are a little exaggerated). The battery pack is, for practical purposes, a 15 year old design." - rsynnott
    • "ACCount37: A lot of the crap like the early Nissan Leafs didn't. And between that and the first gen EV battery pack design being shit in general, the battery pack just cooks itself. Its capacity falls off a cliff over time. This is where a lot of those early concerns about EV battery packs being hideously expensive consumables was coming from." - ACCount37
    • "t_tsonev: This is not a general rule and many non-cooled and air-cooled batteries can hold up pretty well. The battery cooling becomes a limiting factor for DC charging, especially if multiple charging sessions are required per trip. The Leaf limited battery life is mainly to its battery chemistry (LMO), although it arguably doesn't go to great lengths to ensure thermal stability of the pack." - t_tsonev

  • Comparison to Other Devices and EVs: Users draw parallels with phone battery degradation and compare the Leaf's issues to other EV models.

    • "My experience with laptop and phone batteries (holding much less charge pretty quickly) doesn't help." - Xenoamorphous
    • "Yeseven then the Leaf stands out with seemingly unusually high battery degradation compared to the uncooled battery competitors from 2014." - formerly_proven
    • "dzhiurgis: Datapoint: once in a century pandemic event where car prices spiked and crashed back 2 years later" - dzhiurgis (referring to unexpected market shifts affecting value)
    • "7seacat: I just checked my phone (an iPhone 11) and it says 72%. There is absolutely no way the capacity is anywhere near 72% anymore lol" - sevenseacat
    • "ruperthair: The performance/battery life of a phone can be seriously affected by the software (each new iOS being built for newer CPUs), whereas this is less of a factor for cars." - ruperthair

EV Charging Infrastructure and Real-World Usability

The practicality of EV charging, both at home and in public, is a major point of discussion, with users weighing convenience against potential frustrations.

  • Home Charging Convenience: The primary advantage of home charging is highlighted as a seamless experience for daily use.

    • "When in reality you plug in at home and have a full battery every morning." - theshrike79
    • "The only times I need to actively think about charging are over 200-250km day trips (my old Ioniq EV has a WLTP of 300km on a warm summer day)." - theshrike79
    • "The weekly trip to the fuel station disappears, depending on how often you exceed the range of the car you only really get exposed to the charging network and times when doing those journeys..." - PaulKeeble

  • Public Charging Challenges and "Charge Anxiety": The availability, reliability, and user experience of public charging stations are areas of concern for many.

    • "My local grocery store has a bank of superchargers right in the middle of the parkinglot next to the main road. Some days the bank is full and teslas hang out waiting, but they have to wait half in the road to make sure they're close enough to be next in line." - fusslo
    • "My apartment complex has 2 chargers, and we get people coming in who don't live in the complex to use them. People wait next to the strangers to be sure to get the charger before walking home for the night." - fusslo
    • "This kind of social interaction and situations gives me huge anxiety." - fusslo
    • "I get gas once a week, dont wait in line, always works, don't talk to anyone, and I'm gone in less than 5 minutes." - fusslo
    • "The lack of an organised queue (could be in the provider's app, rather than a physical one) at oversubscribed charging stations is the worst thing about EV driving for me." - ruperthair
    • "EV charging is hassle-free if and only if you have a home charger, which typically means you have to own a house as well." - decimalenough
    • "Workplace charging gets extra competitive because it's often free, meaning all sorts of bad behavior is incentivized." - decimalenough
    • "This is with marginal EV adoption. Imagine if it was full scale the headaches that would come. I mean think of the current amount of gas stations around, that would be insufficient to cover EV demand due to the fact EVs need to linger for so much longer." - asdff
    • "My Problem was always the Range Anxiety. Until I got an EV and realized it's not really an issue. There is always an App for that (and even on my car the software gets improved in that regard)." - Bairfhionn

  • Standardization and Payment Issues: The lack of universal charging standards and payment methods is a significant hurdle compared to the established gas station model.

    • "Lack of standards: For 'L3' DC Fast Charging, the Leaf has a CHAdeMO port. Teslas and many newer EVs have NACS. Then there's CCS1 and CCS2. And charging stations are run by multiple vendors with multiple apps and payment methods. It's not like gas stations, like with Shell, BP, Buckee's, etc. where you just drive up, stick the gas nozzle in your car, and squeeze." - masklinn
    • "Afaik in Europe, CCS2 is the standard (and mandatory these days)..." - masklinn
    • "However, I haven't seen a station that takes card yet (or they don't advertise it). They all have their own app, which is inconvenient and a hassle." - stavros

EV Ownership Costs and Depreciation

The financial aspects of EV ownership, particularly depreciation and whether to buy or lease, are debated.

  • Depreciation Concerns: Many users express concern about the rapid depreciation of EVs.

    • "You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have." - behnamoh
    • "From a purely economic point of view, buying a new car is always a bad idea, regardless of the drivetrain technology." - prmoustache
    • "conradev: I still agree with OP in that purchasing an EV, used or not, is brutal with depreciation." - conradev

  • Suggesting Leasing as a Solution: Leasing is proposed as a way to mitigate depreciation.

    • "You should never purchase EVs, only lease them. That's what I did. This saves you from the terrible depreciation they have." - behnamoh
    • "The only time it makes sense to buy an EV is if it's used." - behnamoh

  • Counterarguments on Leasing and Purchase: Others point out that leasing costs include depreciation and that purchasing used EVs can be a sound financial strategy.

    • "Also, leasing does not prevent you from paying for the depreciation. It's just included in the fee." - rjtavares
    • "He bought a used EV. The cost of depreciation is borne by the previous owner." - kccqzy

Older EVs and the Used Market

The discussion delves into the viability and appeal of older or used EVs, with the Nissan Leaf frequently serving as a case study.

  • The Nissan Leaf's Age and Technology: The second-generation Leaf, released in 2017, is seen by some as technologically dated.

    • "It's a 2 years old car, but the model and technology (2nd generation Nissan Leaf) is from 2017, so it's 8 years old in a rapidly evolving field." - tpm
    • "For practical purposes it is a 15 year old design; it had a minor update 8 years ago, but was not brought up to date with the norms of the time (in particular, the passively cooled battery)." - rsynnott
    • "This was the very first mass-market electric car, with only minor tweaks. It's not surprising that it's a bit rough around the edges." - rsynnott

  • Used EV Market Potential: Despite some drawbacks, there's recognition of a growing used EV market offering value.

    • "The second hand market for EVs is getting pretty interesting. There are lots of EV owners that are replacing their EVs every few years and because of all the growth over the last 10 years, there are now quite a few fairly nice EVs on the second hand market." - jillesvangurp
    • "For people who just want a dedicated commuting vehicle used EVs with 80% battery are a pretty good option." - potato3732842
    • "There's probably going to be a surplus of off-lease Leafs coming up over the next one to three years which might make a great deal for people who can charge at home." - illegalsmile

Repairability and Regulation

A notable concern raised is the repairability of EVs and the role of regulations, particularly in Europe, in addressing potential anti-consumer practices by manufacturers.

  • Design Faults and DRM: Some EVs, especially European ones, are flagged for design faults that can lead to high repair costs and restrictive digital rights management (DRM).

    • "TL;DR is many EVs and hybrids (especially European ones) have tonnes of design faults with e-motors and power-electronics that not only make them ticking time bombs(not in the explosive sense) out of warranty, but also have malicious DRM making third party parts impossible to source, and repairs difficult and eye watering expensive even if theoretically EVs should be more reliable on paper than ICE cars." - FirmwareBurner
    • "Maybe the EU should focus more on EV/auto repairability regulations instead of smartphones and USB-C widgets." - FirmwareBurner

  • Role of Computerization: The increasing computerization of all cars, not just EVs, is seen as a root cause of repairability issues.

    • "The DRM thing unfortunately has nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with the computerization of cars. All cars have gotten more and more computerized and harder to repair with more DRM. EVs arguably fundamentally require heavy computerization more than ICE cars, but you're not gonna avoid it in a brand new diesel car either." - mort96

  • EU Regulations: There's debate about the effectiveness and intent of EU regulations regarding repairability and DRM.

    • "The EU did put in regulations, but they did the opposite and essentially mandated DRM. They want to prevent owners from turning off nanny devices or overriding pollution controls." - arpinum

Miscellaneous Observations

Several other points are made, including driving habits, the cost of rental cars for trips, and the evolution of interior design.

  • Driving Behavior: Simple driving style is noted as a factor in battery life.

    • "Not driving like a maniac." - tfrutuoso

  • Rental Cars for Road Trips: The cost-effectiveness of renting a different vehicle for longer trips is debated.

    • "Renting a car for vacations / road trips is expensive. sure you can but expect to pay $100 per day. Also expect to arrive and be told they can't fill your reservation as they are out of cars." - bluGill
    • "First, 3-4 annual multi-day trips that go for longer than 300 km? If one has that amount of disposable income to afford that, go for whatever the biggest Tesla is and use Superchargers along the route..." - mschuster91

  • Interior Design and Controls: User experience with interior controls, such as the placement of play/pause buttons, is discussed.

    • "There is no 'play/pause' button. Anywhere. At least not on the steering wheel or the display area. You have to go into the music section on the entertainment display, then press the software play/pause button. That's dumb." - donatj
    • "My new to me 2023 Honda Odyssey has the same stupid issue. It's my first vehicle with a touch screen, and I have a lot of trouble hitting the pause button especially when I'm trying to mute it because I need to pay extra attention to the road. WHY is there not just a Play/Pause button on the wheel!? Or at least a physical button on the dashboard." - donatj