This discussion primarily revolves around powerful, customizable, and long-lasting computing environments, with a strong emphasis on Emacs as a prime example.
The Appeal of Deeply Customizable and Enduring Systems
A core theme is the appreciation for computing philosophies and tools that prioritize deep customization, extensibility, and a long lifespan for the user's investment. Users express a desire for systems that can be molded to individual needs rather than dictating how tasks should be performed.
- The original poster, skydhash, states: "The model of computer use that appeals to me are the one that in theory have a simple system, but the real goal is for you to have a tool that fits your needs."
- skydhash further elaborates on this sentiment: "The more I'm learning more about the above, the more I'm believing that most computer problems has been solved since a long time and the focus should be on improving and creating new tools, not reinventing them."
Emacs as the Epitome of Customization and Personal Workflow
Emacs emerges as a central point of discussion, representing the ideal of a deeply personal and adaptable computing environment. Users share experiences of modifying Emacs extensively to perfectly suit their workflows, highlighting the long-term benefits and unique ownership this fosters.
- alexkehayias describes their approach: "Having used emacs for many years, OP's description of 'doing things wrong' is exactly the way I use emacs. I seldom care about the inner workings of emacs and will do the absolute minimum to get it to work the way I want and then move on."
- This personal customization is lauded for its compounding benefits: "Every time you modify it, you are improving your workflow. Those changes compound over time so that the system is always familiar, which makes interacting with text, the filesystem, network, and anything else you can manipulate with Elisp, that much easier, faster, and more comfortable."
- The longevity and consistency of Emacs are highlighted: "What you end up with is a system that is unique to you. A system that does what you want the way you want it, and never changes unless you want it to. In a world where software constantly changes and breaks, where new editors appear and disappear, using your own version of Emacs is incredibly comforting. There are no surprises, no rugpulls, no radical UI redesigns, no sneaky telemetry or tracking, no ads, no nagware, and so on."
- A long-time user testifies to its enduring value: "I have been using Emacs for 35 years and I am still learning along the way. It has been the one constant across Solaris, Linux, Windows and macOS for all that time."
- The intrinsic hacker mentality fostered by Emacs is also a key aspect: "What I like the most is the hacker mentality it encourages. When I see something I don't like, I don't go like 'I wish they did it differently', I ask 'well how do I change that?'."
The Steep Learning Curve of Emacs and Mitigation Strategies
The significant learning curve associated with Emacs is acknowledged as a potential barrier. However, participants discuss how this can be navigated and mitigated through available resources and the inherent rewards of the learning process.
- The learning curve is described as challenging: "It's slow, alien in many ways, lags behind in features of modern editors, and has a brutally steep learning curve, especially if you're not familiar with Lisps. It may take you years to appreciate it, and a lifetime to understand it."
- Another user echoes this: "Emacs takes a lifetime to learn. The sooner you start the longer it takes!"
- Conversely, some argue that the learning curve isn't an insurmountable obstacle: "The steep learning curve is flattened quite a bit by available 'starter pack' configs and the amount of fresh articles. So you can get a functional editor and then gradually bend it to your needs."
- Modern advancements are making Emacs more accessible and competitive: "By adding native tree-sitter and LSP support, the IDE-like features are outsourced to where they should be done. It wasn't perfect, but I had issues of the same degree or worse with other editors. A proprietary IDE still would beat it in stability and features, but the experience is crazy good for free software."
- The potential for decline due to a steep learning curve is debated: "It isn't, that's how apps decline in popularity and eventually die, thus decreasing the value of the huge amount of time you've invested."
The Value of Personal Modifications and Risk Tolerance
A recurring point is the practice of making personal, often unconventional, modifications to software, particularly Emacs. This highlights a willingness to accept potential breakage in exchange for highly tailored functionality, with varying opinions on the inherent risks.
- Users find satisfaction in personal optimizations: "I've got a handful of little personal optimizations like this, too, they're great."
- One user shares an example of a significant modification: "Case in point, I found that org-export is super slow. After profiling it, I found the slow function, copied it, removed the slow part, and advice-add it right back in there[0]. Might this break some other deeply intertwined behavior someplace else? Probably. Does it matter if I'm the only one using it? Nope."
- A counterpoint is raised about the unnoticed consequences of such modifications: "Yes, you yourself can also suffer from that breakage, and worst of all, might be able not even notice it right away, so have a period of silent issues."
- This is countered by the nature of Emacs itself: "Eh, Emacs isn't really a system where broken behaviour goes unnoticed. It either works as you expect or something isn't working correctly."
The Evolution of Text Editing and Data Handling
The discussion touches upon the evolution of tools for text manipulation and data presentation, with a specific mention of spreadsheets and their potential for dynamic data integration.
- skydhash expresses a desire for more dynamic spreadsheets: "Spreadsheets are nice too, but they're still lacking the surrounding helpers that would make them great. There's VBA in excel, but I'm thinking about more like dynamic table that's linked to an endpoint or some commands (Unix's ps). I haven't explored tools like Airbase to see if they fit that vision."
- Another user suggests a potentially related tool: "I believe Excel has PowerBI for this purpose."
Enduring Principles of Computing
Underlying the entire discussion is a broader appreciation for foundational computing principles that emphasize simplicity, power through composition, and longevity.
- The initial mention of BSDs (Unix) and Smalltalk, alongside Emacs, points to a shared philosophy of "simple systems" that allow for deep, user-driven specialization.
- The value of established tools that have stood the test of time is evident, suggesting a skepticism towards faddish or ephemeral software.
- The discussion implicitly critiques modern software trends that prioritize rapid change, user tracking, or a lack of user control, in favor of systems that empower the user and respect their investment.