Here's a summary of the themes expressed in the Hacker News discussion:
Allegations of Unconstitutional Surveillance
A core theme is the concern that ICE (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement) is unconstitutionally tracking and compiling lists of individuals at protests, infringing upon First Amendment rights. The detection of numerous IMSI-exposing commands is seen as direct evidence of this.
"I.e. the inference is that ICE is unconstitutionally tracking and assembling lists of protestors exercising their First Amendment rights." - perihelions
âA post-scan analysis confirmed the detection of 574 IMSI-exposing messages.â That's roughly 574 unique protestors, give or take. Full-on autocratic tyrannyâthis is also what Putin's oligarchs did to Ukranians at the Maidan Protests, in Kyiv in 2014. Used IMSI-catchers to assemble lists of everyone present, and intimidate them. - perihelions
This concern is amplified by the broad, dragnet nature of IMSI catchers, which collect data from many devices indiscriminately.
"This broad dragnet nature of Stingray collection has always been why it's been a major privacy issue. Like doing a wiretap by tapping the whole neighbourhood and filtering phone calls for a certain address." - dmix
The Role and Interpretation of Warrants
A significant debate revolves around whether the use of IMSI catchers, even with a warrant, is acceptable and whether such warrants truly represent a safeguard. Some argue that a warrant is necessary and implies lawful intent, particularly when targeting a specific individual. Others contend that the broad nature of the technology makes even a targeted warrant a form of dragnet surveillance, and that the FISA warrant approval rate suggests warrants are easily obtained.
"How do you know there wasnât a warrant?" - tiahura "It'd be flatly unconstitutional to approve a dragnet warrant targeting a protest." - perihelions "In a recently-unsealed search warrant reviewed by Forbes, ICE used such a cell-site simulator in an attempt to track down an individual in Orem, Utah." - tiahura
"It establishes that it is possible to obtain a warrant to use this device. One could have been obtained in Tukwila." - loeg
"They wouldn't necessarily be targeting the whole protest, the IMSI catcher would work broadly and from that the warrant would require them to narrow down to one and ignore rest. Unless I misunderstood the technical details the parent comment posted." - dmix
"Whether an action has gotten a legal thumbs-up or not is of little relevance here." - lordhumphrey "I'd like to leave the question of why that's true as an exercise for the reader, but your comment makes it sound as if you have trouble with this concept, so let's be explicit - a state operating autocratically can, and often will, rubberstamp whatever it decides it wants to do." - lordhumphrey "Had a quick look for the numbers from FISA to give you a sample of this. Mother Jones says that they denied 11 requests for surveillance warrants out of 33,900 requests over 33 years of operation. That's a pass rate of 99.07%! So allow me to say - a warrant wouldn't have changed anything, they give them out like nothing." - lordhumphrey
"On the contrary, I don't think there's anything more relevant. That such action can be legal speaks volumes about the state of what is legal and tolerated within the US." - Levitz
"It's relevant in the sense of 'is this an indicator of increasing autocracy' but not relevant in the sense of 'does the presence of the warrant indicate this is ok'." - anecdatas
"A warrant for several thousand people at a spontaneous event ?" - throwawayq3423
"The article describes a search conducted with a warrant. Given the brazen criminality ICE agents are acting with, Iâd like to see evidence of malpractice before risking diluting the message." - JumpCrisscross
"A warrant against a criminal. This is the case that most people support." - abirch
"I do not support having my cell phone location data sucked up by the government in general while exercising my First Amendment right to protest. That this particular government is doing it is frankly, terrifying." - buellerbueller
"Even if that tool queries everyone in the neighborhood?" - cosmicgadget
"The argument with Stringrays is that even with a warrant to target an individual the police end up sucking up a large amount of random people's location and cell phone data." - rhcom2
"Like license plate readers and facial recognition, you're out in the world without the expectation of privacy but I think for most people that feels different when a giant automated system is sucking everything up without recourse." - rhcom2
"WHile I don't expect privacy, I want it, and I want other people to really think about it and not want public surveillance as well. We should have some expectation of privacy out in public and not allow a loophole of "oh, but we were looking for someone else but also saw you", it's a huge loophole with essentially no limits. A warrant should cover one "thing" a person, group, etc. Anything else grabbed in the process should not be admissible in court or even be used by the police." - EasyMark
Erosion of Rights and Increasing Autocracy
A pervasive theme is the fear of an encroaching, possibly autocratic state, where surveillance capabilities are expanding and rights are being systematically eroded. Users express a general distrust of government power and cite historical precedents and legislative actions like the Patriot Act as evidence of this trend. The discussion also touches on the perceived politicization of the Supreme Court and its potential role in enabling such expansive government power.
"Appoint, yet still needing Senate approval is probably what made this palatable to the founding fathers. I'm guessing the old white dudes in wigs never thought that the Senate would abdicate its role by become subservient to one old dude if not in a powdered wig at least in powdered face" - dylan604
"Given that the Supreme Court has managed to appoint[1] two presidents in the past thirty years, I'd say that the Gordian knot has tightened." - vkou
"When you treat with someone you know to be a compulsive liar, the onus of proof is on them. If this government has not proven that they had one, you'd be mad to trust that they did. There are no consequences to it for lying, or for not following the law, or not acting in good faith. It has a well-documented history of doing all three, and is headed by a convicted criminal." - vkou
"Can we stop sanewashing these people? They clearly don't care for legality, constitutionality, anything positive or good." - analognoise
"That such action can be legal speaks volumes about the state of what is legal and tolerated within the US. This, like pretty much everything about the current administration, is not explicitly about Trump, but something that has been cooking for at the very least the past two decades." - Levitz
"The Patriot Act was an eye opener to me. Fear has to be, by far, an authoritarian's best tool against the masses. I was shocked "we the people" let the Patriot Act happen, i was also shocked when people locked themselves up for a year voluntarily during covid. All you need is a way to produce fear in the population and they'll do and believe anything you say. Anything." - chasd00
"'THere are criminals though!' and 'think of the children' are what will bring in full authoritarianism. People are afraid of their own shadows these and want to live a 100% secure life at ANY cost." - EasyMark
"The attack threw Iranâs intelligence apparatus into a tailspin, and soon enough Iranian officials discovered a devastating security lapse: The Israelis had been led to the meeting by hacking the phones of bodyguards who had accompanied the Iranian leaders to the site and waited outside..." - dredmorbius
"Erosion of anyoneâs rights is an erosion of everyoneâs rights." - JohnMakin
"Absolutely, we were warned. No one heeded and then came the destruction of the Republican party by the likes of Rush, Newt and Rove who convinced the voting public everyone is evil who doesn't agree with them. Centrist and left leaning voters hoped it would just run it's course and go away, then evangelicals signed up with the Republicans and here we are." - bloomingeek
"The left was a Cassandra the whole time -- it's been nothing but warnings from the left. The Democrats (note: the Dems are not a left party) refused to listen, assuring everyone it was fine, that we just needed to return to norms and decorum." - anecdatas
"Trust me, people thought you were some wild crazy freak. See here's how it works, watch: There's going to be concentration camps. The volume of deportation required demands it. There always needs to be two sides agreeing in a deportation, the sending and the receiving. If there's a bottleneck at the receiving or an incompetence in the sending then you warehouse. It's inherent to any logistics." - kristopolous
"The time to be concerned was 10-15yr ago when these tactics were being normalized (if you take issue with the means) and the policies that teed up the current immigration showdown were being figured out (if you take issue with the end). People were screeching about this stuff then but they were brushed off by as 'conspiracy weirdos'..." - potato3732842
"the president's power has expanded far too much over the past 30 years. The supreme court and congress are really failing at their jobs." - EasyMark
"the US is not in decline because of whatever anyone from outside does. It's following the same cycle all Hegemons go through over 100-200 years. Whether its Greece, Babylon, Eygpt, Rome, Islamic Caliphates or all the later European powers. They all went through a similar a cycle - rise - dominate - decline." - kps30
"In the US, it's as if we're living in a bad sci-fi/horror movie the last ten years. People argue about politics, forgetting to hold politicians accountable to any laws. Most of SCOTUS is a party stooge and the POTUS is a mafia type thug, basically blackmailing corporations and law firms." - bloomingeek
Technical Aspects and Countermeasures
Discussion also delves into the technical details of IMSI catchers, their limitations, and potential countermeasures. Users discuss the technical feasibility of detecting these devices and share tools like EFF's Rayhunter. The effectiveness of "burner phones," Faraday bags, and the "no phone" strategy are debated as methods to avoid detection. There's also a conversation about how network operators might collect subscriber data and whether this requires IMSI catchers.
"SAN doesn't say where the unusual tower traffic originated. Does the Marlin system attempt to geolocate and identify the suspicious transmitters?" - notherhack
"Could the regular mobile tower operators collect subscriber identities at will via their regular gear, with no stingray vans or warrants required, and save the information for later? That seems to be how it's done with the other subscriber location and communication contents that they collect." - notherhack
"Could folks share more accessible methods for developing counter-Stingray type activities described in this paper, or rather, which ones they themselves have used with varying degrees of success?" - boston_clone
"'no phone' is the only safe option" - nisegami
"No phone actually stands out a lot in real life surveillance systems and will very quickly get you a bunch of additional attention because itâs so unusual." - mdhb
"For the overwhelming majority of people I donât think there is much yet to worry about in simply attending a protest (Assuming youâre a citizen and you act sensibly because otherwise thatâs an entirely different threat model and you probably shouldnât be there at the moment)." - mdhb
"Iâd recommend keeping the illegal activity side of things extremely fucking low to non-existent personally and everything else will become much simpler as a result. Itâs much easier to just not have evidence than trying to hide it." - mdbh2
"You can remove the battery, put it in a Faraday cage and charge it turned off (or in another device/out of one). It can be on only when you need it." - tpxl
"My phone has hardware kill switches, so I can be sure the modem is off when I need it." - fsflover
"PSA: If you have to worry about your government taking people away to some black site, things have gotten pretty bad." - sho_hn
"ThatsThePoint.jpg" - dredmorbius
"For $20, it's cheap enough to add to a drone for a targeting purpose" - dylan604
"Can you guys share more accessible methods for developing counter-Stingray type activities described in this paper, or rather, which ones they themselves have used with varying degrees of success?" - boston_clone
"Ideally, this is something I could hack together in the next few days since ICE is prepping to invade my city." - boston_clone
"Yes. I think that what is happening does rise to extrajudicial killing - killing that ICE chose not to prevent but to maintain; and inevitable killing without any corresponding sentence." - nxobject
"I'm tired of people protecting these murderous criminals who don't give two sh*s about any laws. This lack of empathy (for the victims of these criminals) is appalling." - whatsupdog
"It would be amazing if an authoritarian government like that in Venezuela could just "facilitate" (such a funny word these days) getting a single convicted murderer into the US and then turn the US into the same kind of authoritarian government." - xrd
"Jabbering about the legality of surveillance on civilians? Sure, but most people don't care about that sort of nuance anymore compared to the sheer overwhelming quantity of raw data being collected and weaponized." - chazmc0
"Could the regular mobile tower operators collect subscriber identities at will via their regular gear, with no stingray vans or warrants required, and save the information for later? That seems to be how it's done with the other subscriber location and communication contents that they collect." - notherhack
"They can use standardized lawful interception interfaces to get all this data. No big need to dig down deep into the radio and protocol layer." - NoiseBert69
"You can collect IMSI passively over LTE: [GitHub link] You can just jam everyone in the area and see who reconnects." - yinznaughty
"Couldnât I just grab a Baicells eNB off eBay and point it at my own Open5GS installation and passively sniff IMSIs of users scanning around anyways that try to attach and reject? It feels like I could build some kind of âsnifferâ fairly easily these days as well." - kotaKat
"Every bus stop and billboard with a CBS logo on it is doing the same thing and has been for a long time. They map your movements by presenting as a cell tower and record the IMEIs of passers by." - allseeingimei
"The Forbes article says ICE acquired mobile cellular surveillance equipment and services under the Biden administration, and there have been IMSI catchers detected at demonstrations for a long time, for example at the Dakota Access Pipeline demonstrations in November, 2016. It's not a new thing." - notherhack
"The use of Stingrays to conduct mass surveillance dates back decades, yes." - cheald
"Wasn't this thought impossible with LTE, I thought older bands were only susceptible to this attack." - CommanderData
"5G standalone is not transmitting IMEI in plain text ever to my knowledge." - betaby
"Isn't this then ripe for a downgrade attack?" - boston_clone
"To LTE? Doesn't work there either. There are IMSI catchers - but they all require GSM. At least on Google Pixels you can turn off 2G with a switch. The phone even shows a message about its insecurity." - NoiseBert69
"Classic 2G stingrays are a lot less complicated, but attempts to secure the IMSI haven't properly been implemented until 5G came around. Even then, the IMSI has been replaced with encryption and temporary identifiers your carrier knows belongs to you, and if law enforcement comes in with a warrant they can get those replacement identifiers from your carrier regardless. You can't get the IMSIs passively anymore, but LTE doesn't make these attacks impossible, just less practical, especially for criminals that don't have warrants on their side." - jeroenhd
"I don't know why your cellphone can't do this. For example, It âknowsâ which towers are around your home. If all of the sudden thereâs a new one, pop up an alert." - HumblyTossed
"I use Network Cell Info Lite[0] for this purpose. Sadly, it's only available in the Google/Apple stores (if anyone knows of a similar tool that's available elsewhere, I'd love to hear about it!) It allows me to locate the "cell towers" I'm connecting to and that are nearby, as well as the devices around me, and will map them for me. In fact, several years ago, I noted a brand spanking new "cell tower a block or so away (this is in NYC) that appeared to be in the street(!). It stayed there for a couple weeks and then was gone. It sure seemed like it was an IMSI catcher[1]." - nobody9999
"Is running a fake cell tower technically against FCC regulations? Any possibility of just reporting them to the FCC and causing them to incur fines or take them down?" - elihu
"Maybe best not to joke about that. An enthusiastic and muddle-headed person might get inspired by disposable Internet chatter, and then go and get themselves sent to federal prison (or worse). Also, I suspect that an attack like that would only justify (or be used as a pretext for) additional actions that are undesirable to the perpetrator." - neilv
"IMSI catchers have been popular by police all over the world. Here are some other tools [0] [1]. Edit: Interesting also the collection of network security via gsmmap [2]" - riedel
"Rayhunter â Rust tool to detect cell site simulators on an orbic mobile hotspot" - dang
"If your cell phone is connected to cell towers, almost anyone can buy your location. Only option is stay in airplane mode and use wifi." - lrvick
"Hello WiFi Geolocation technologies." - pizzly