HN Distilled

Essential insights from Hacker News discussions

It is worth it to buy the fast CPU

Original Article

Hacker News Discussion

Here's a summary of the themes discussed in the Hacker News thread:

The Efficacy of Apple Silicon for Development

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the performance and suitability of Apple's M-series chips for developer workflows. While many acknowledge Apple's advancements, especially in performance-per-watt and unified memory for certain tasks like local ML model execution, others argue that Apple's pricing is a significant barrier.

  • "Even better way to improve the quality of your computer sessions is 'Just use Mac.' Apple is so much ahead at the performance curve." - miohtama
  • "They have good performance, especially per watt, for a laptop. Certainly not ahead of the curve when considering server hardware." - mgaunard
  • "Not just that; they have a decent GPU and the unified memory architecture which allows to directly run many ML models locally with good performance." - nine_k
  • "Apple have made a killer development machine, I say this as a person who does not like Apple and macOS." - nine_k
  • "Apple still has quite atrocious performance per $." - cornholio
  • "Apple doesn’t really make desktop CPUs, though. Just very good oversized mobile ones." - wqaatwt
  • "My guess is this is mostly the apple crowd because apple 'desktops' are for the most part - just the same hardware in a larger box instead of being actually a different class of machine. A little better on the thermals, but not the drastic jump you see between laptops and desktops from AMD and Intel." - krisroadruck
  • "Fwiw, my recent hn submission had a really good discussion on this very same topic." - furkansahin

The Impact of Compilation Times on Developer Productivity

The thread frequently touches on how compile times directly affect a developer's flow state and overall productivity. Fast compile times, even shaving off seconds, are seen as crucial for maintaining focus.

  • "I would agree with the idea that faster compile times can have a significant improvement in performance. 30s is long enough for a developer to get distracted and go off and check their email, look at social media, etc. Basically turning 30s into 3s can keep a developer in flow." - 2shortplanks
  • "The critical thing we’re missing here is how increasing the CPU speed will decrease the compile time. What if the compiler is IO bound? Or memory bound? Removing one bottleneck will get you to the next bottleneck, not necessarily get you all the performance gains you want" - 2shortplanks
  • "I think just having LSP give you answers 2x faster would be great for staying in flow." - mordae
  • "I've been struggling with this topic a lot, I feel the slowness everyday and productivity loss of having slow computers, 30m for something that could take 10 times less... it's horrible." - Rucadi
  • "If developers are frustrated by compilation times on last-generation hardware, maybe take a critical look at the code and libraries you're compiling." - mft_

The Debate Over Cloud Workstations vs. Local Machines

The increasing adoption of cloud workstations by companies is a recurring theme, sparking debate about its benefits and drawbacks. While some see it as a way to provide employees with the latest hardware without local IT overhead, others criticize the added latency and dependency on network connectivity.

  • "I've seen more and more companies embrace cloud workstations." - mgaunard
  • "It is of course more expensive but that allows them to offer the latest and greatest to their employees without needing all the IT staff to manage a physical installation. Then your actual physical computer is just a dumb terminal." - mgaunard
  • "Great, now every operation has 300ms of latency. Kill me" - milesrout
  • "All of the big clouds have regions throughout the world so you should be able to find one less than 100ms away fairly easily." - mgaunard
  • "I've seen more and more companies embrace cloud workstations. In which movie ? 'Microsoft fried movie' ? Cloud sucks big time. Not all engineers are web developers." - hulitu
  • "With tools like Blaze/Bazel (Google) or Buck2 (Meta) compilations are performed on a massive parallel server farm and the hermetic nature of the builds ensures there are no undocumented dependencies to bite you. These are used for nearly everything at Big Tech, not just webdev." - fmajid
  • "Or, perhaps, make it easier to run your stuff on a big machine over -> there. It doesn't have to be the cloud, but having a couple of ginormous machines in a rack where the fans can run at jet engine levels seems like a no-brainer." - bsder
  • "The build farm argument makes sense in an office environment where the majority of developer machines are mostly idle most of the time. It's completely unsuitable for remote working situations where each developer has a single machine and latency and bandwidth to shared resource is slow." - ralferoo

Hardware Procurement Policies and Corporate Frugality

The discussion delves into how companies, particularly in the tech sector (referred to as FANG), equip their developers. There's a strong sentiment that some companies are overly frugal, hindering productivity despite potentially small cost savings relative to developer salaries.

  • "Employers, even the rich FANG types, are quite penny-wise and pound-foolish when it comes to developer hardware." - avidiax
  • "Limiting the number and size of monitors. Putting speedbumps (like assessments or doctor's notes) on ergo accessories. Requiring special approval for powerful hardware. Requiring special approval for travel, and setting hotel and airfare caps that haven't been adjusted for inflation." - avidiax
  • "To be fair, I know plenty of people that would order the highest spec MacBook just to do web development and open 500 chrome tabs. There is abuse. But that abuse is really capped out at a few thousand in laptops, monitors and workstations, even with high-end specs, which is just a small fraction of one year's salary for a developer." - avidiax
  • "FANG is not monolithic. Amazon is famously cheap. So is Apple in my opinion based on what I have heard (you get random refurbished hardware that is available not some standardized thing, sometimes with 8GB RAM sometimes something nicer) Apple is also famously cheap on their compensation." - tgma
  • "Google and Facebook I don't think are cheap for developers. I can speak firsthand for my past Google experience." - tgma
  • "You want speed limits not speed bumps. And they should be pretty high limits..." - adverbly
  • "Every well funded startup I’ve worked for went through a period where employees could get nearly anything they asked for: New computers, more monitors, special chairs, standing desks, SaaS software, DoorDash when working late. If engineers said they needed it, they got it. Then some period of time later they start looking at spending in detail and can’t believe how much is being spent by the 25% or so who abuse the possibly." - Aurornis
  • "There is abuse. But that abuse is really capped out at a few thousand in laptops, monitors and workstations, even with high-end specs, though in the age of $6,000 fully specced MacBook Pros, $2,000 monitors, $3,000 standing desks, $1500 iPads with $100 Apple pencils and $300 keyboard cases, $1,000 chairs, SaaS licenses that add up, and (if allowed) food delivery services for “special circumstances” that turns into a regular occurrence it was common to see individuals incurring expenses in the tens of thousands range." - Aurornis
  • "Google used to be so un-cheap they had a dedicated ergo lab room where you could try out different keyboards. They eventually became so cheap they blanket paused refreshing developer laptops..." - beachtaxidriver

The Evolution of CPU Performance and Bottlenecks

A core technical theme is the advancement of CPU performance, particularly multi-core capabilities, and the identification of other bottlenecks. While CPUs have indeed become much faster, the discussion highlights that I/O, memory bandwidth, and software design also play critical roles in overall performance.

  • "Desktop CPUs are about 3x faster than laptop CPUs" - Original post inferred from context.
  • "Maybe that’s an AMD (or even Intel) thing, but doesn’t hold for Apple silicon." - JSR_FDED
  • "The author is talking about multi-core performance rather than single core. Apple silicon only offers a low number of cores on desktop chips compared to what Intel or AMD offers." - Sayrus
  • "Apple: 32 cores (M3 Ultra) AMD: 96 cores (Threadripper PRO 9995WX) Intel: 60 cores (W‑9 3595X) I wouldn’t exactly call that low, but it is lower for sure." - gloxkiqcza
  • "Yeah i9-14900 and 9950x are better comparisons, at 24 and 16 cores respectively." - brookst
  • "Top end CPUs are about 3x faster than the comparable top end models 3 years ago" - kaspar030 (quoted in the discussion)
  • "My 5950x (bought in mid 2021. I checked) and the latest 9950x is not particularly large on synthetic benchmarks, and the real world difference for a software developer who is often IO bound in their workflow is going to be negligible" - poink
  • "If developers are frustrated by compilation times on last-generation hardware, maybe take a critical look at the code and libraries you're compiling. And as a siblimg comment notes, absolutely all testing should be on older hardware, without question, and I'd add with deliberately lower-quality and -speed data connections, too." - mft_
  • "I wish developers, and I'm saying this as one myself, were forced to work on a much slower machine, to flush out those who can't write efficient code. Software bloat has already gotten worse by at least an order of magnitude in the past decade." - userbinator
  • "However, most software nowadays is still limited by single core speed and that area hasn’t seen relevant growth in years." - fxtentacle
  • "Single core performance has not been stagnant. We're about double where we were in 2015 for a range of workloads. Branch prediction, OoO execution, SIMD, etc. make a huge difference." - bob1029
  • "Single core performance has tripled in the last 10 years" - TiredOfLife
  • "Intel Core i5-5287U: Single-Core Maximum Wattage: ~7-12W... GB6 Single Core : ~950. Apple M4: Single-Core Maximum Wattage: ~4-6W... GB6 Single Core : ~3600. In 10 years, we got ~3.5x Single Core performance at ~50% Wattage. i.e 7x Performance per Watt with 3 Node Generation improvements." - ksec

The Role of Software and Operating System Factors

Beyond raw hardware, the discussion points out that software design, operating systems, and specific features can significantly impact user experience and perceived performance, sometimes negating hardware advantages.

  • "The limiting factor on high-end laptops is their thermal envelope. Get the better CPU as long as it is more power efficient. Then get brands that design proper thermal solutions." - jhanschoo
  • "A little better on the thermals, but not the drastic jump you see between laptops and desktops from AMD and Intel." - krisroadruck (referring to Apple desktops)
  • "One of the biggest bottlenecks when compiling software on a Mac is notarization, where every executable you compile causes a HTTP call to Apple. In addition to being a privacy nightmare, this causes the configure step in autoconf based packages to be excruciatingly slow." - fmajid
  • "They added always-connected DRM to software development, neat" - gentooflux
  • "M4 is amazing hardware held up by a sub-par OS." - Majid (regarding macOS)
  • "I hate every single interaction with it [Microsoft Teams], I wish curse upon their creators, and may their descendants never have a smooth user experience with any software they use." - amarcheschi
  • "I am on my old laptop with its hard drive, can't believe how slow life was before SSDs. I am enjoying listening to the hard drive work away and I am surprised to realize that I missed it." - ofalkaed (commenting on the impact of SSDs)

The Balance Between Developer Freedom and Corporate Control

A recurring tension is the balance between giving developers the freedom to choose their tools and the need for corporate oversight and cost control. This manifests in discussions about hardware budgets, software policies, and workplace culture.

  • "You can't buy one person everything they want, just because they have high salary, otherwise the employee next door will get salty." - createaccount99
  • "Equality doesn't have to mean uniformity." - hamdingers
  • "If we're talking about rich faang type companies, no, it's not about equal treatment. These companies can afford whatever hardware is requested. This is probably true of most companies." - dfxm12