Certainly! Here's a summary of the themes expressed in the Hacker News discussion, presented in markdown with direct quotations:
Probiotic Bacteria and Beneficial Metabolites
A significant portion of the discussion revolves around specific bacteria, particularly Lactobacillus plantarum (formerly Lactiplantibacillus plantarum), and its metabolite 10-HSA (10-hydroxy-cis-12-octadecenoic acid). Users highlight the prevalence of this bacteria in fermented foods and its potential health benefits.
- ck2 states: "10-HSA is a fatty-acid metabolite produced by Lactobacillus bacteria. Lactobacillus Plantarum is a super common probiotic that produces 10-HSA and other important metabolites. its commercial name is also known as lp299v which has been studied for decades, tons of studies."
- DaveZale suggests: "kefir has that microbe. So drink some kefir and eat a kraut dog. Or a Ruben." He also links to the Wikipedia page for Lactiplantibacillus plantarum, noting its agricultural role for silage, which leads to its presence in dairy products.
- verst wonders: "Makes me wonder whether Makgeolli (a low alcohol fermented traditional Korean beverage) contains this too."
- DaveZale further inquires: "Sure, or kombucha?"
- hinkley clarifies the taxonomy: "From the article we are talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactiplantibacillus_plantarum and it’s apparently the most common fermenting bacteria for silage, and shows up in sauerkraut and kimchi."
Potential Applications and Health Implications
The discussion frequently connects these beneficial bacteria and their metabolites to various health conditions, particularly liver health, given their ability to potentially counteract toxins like aflatoxins and address issues related to NAFLD (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease) and alcohol-induced liver damage.
- DaveZale highlights the broad relevance: "Amazing finding. The statistics on liver damage from aflatoxins said to affect potentially 5 billion people. And of course in the US, with its high incidence of obesity has liver issues due to NAFLD. Then of course the heavy drinkers are all at risk."
- lr4444lr speculates on the broader implications of fermented foods: "Makes me wonder how much of the positive research on fermented foods generally has to do with liver function improvement, since the organ is crucial to the health of most of the body."
Probiotic Efficacy and Delivery Methods
There's a nuanced discussion about the best ways to deliver these beneficial compounds, with skepticism about the reliability of current probiotic supplements.
- ck2 mentions the safety and dosage of lp299v: "lp299v is extreme safe and can be taken in mega-doses however it will not colonize in the GI so would have to be taken routinely."
- 0cf8612b2e1e queries practicality: "Wouldn’t it be easier to just take a gram of the metabolite itself vs hoping for long term colonization?"
- DaveZale draws a parallel with other metabolites: "yes, this is what's done with tributyrin which is a triester of butyric acid. You want to ingest either a butyric acid salt or an ester of butyric acid, since the butyric acid itself is really stinky."
- wdwvt1 expresses caution about probiotic claims: "As a note on the probiotics - be very skeptical of probiotic claims. Even if the microbe actually engrafts in your GI tract (a very big if), the probability that it is producing a given 'good' metabolite is unclear. Microbes have thousands of genes and they are constantly changing metabolism (=the metabolites they excrete) as a function of an innumerable array of factors including: energetic (what food sources are in the GI at that moment?), competitive (what competitor species are they sensing?), immune (what is the host immune state?), and physical (do I sense a high diffusion environment?) factors."
The Role of Modern Diets and Environmental Factors in Gut Health
A significant thread explores the potential decline in gut health attributed to modern living, including diet, processed foods, and even environmental factors.
- hinkley observes: "We’ve mostly studied gut health. Something about modern diets is messing that up substantially. Some think it may be Roundup, others dish detergent, others some microbe we can’t culture on Petri dishes."
- griffzhowl seeks evidence: "What's the evidence that modern diets are substantially messing up gut health? (just curious, not (necessarily;) sceptical)"
- hinkley points to rising disease incidence: "The incidence of crohn’s, IBD, celiac, etc going on out there. Some people want to throw obesity into that ring as well. Inflammation certainly causes weight gain."
- griffzhowl elaborates on diet and specific food processing: "Ah ok, well, obesity incidence is probably almost entirely explained by the amount of sugar and fats in modern diets. I wouldn't have thought of it as pertaining to gut health specifically, but no doubt there can be relationships there. The other things seem more plausible. Purely anecdotally, my step-dad always thought he was intolerant to gluten because of his reactions to British bread, but when he spent a lot of time in France and tried bread there, he was fine. Could be there's something about the production process of the standard British 'Chorleywood loaf' that aggravates some bowels."
- DaveZale concurs on processed foods: "I believe that ultraprocessed foods are recognized as borderline poisons. Esp if they contain trans fats or hydrogenated fats, which arw described as 'slow acting poisons' - but the same goes for 'extruded foods' - stuff that is processed to the point where it can be molded or squeezed into funny looking shapes."
- astrange offers an alternative perspective on obesity: "The obesity epidemic started rapidly around 1980, but it's unlikely diet changed for the worse since then. Also, it happened to lab animals and pets as well." He also links to studies correlating obesity with low altitudes.
- metalman emphasizes the "you are your biome" concept and ancestral diets: "there is a sort of concept that states 'you are your biome', and no end of evidence to show that poor gut and other flora causes disease, with many ways to get there, diet bieng one there are many tribal groups that fair exceptionaly poorly on modern wester diets, with well documented cases of plains indians haveing spontainious remission of diabetes when going to the much leaner diet of there ancestors."
- Llamamoe proposes antibiotics as a key factor: "Why assume it's the diets rather than antibiotics? Your gut microbiome develops during the first ~3y of life(including partial heritability from your mother), after which the total set of microbes in it remains approximately constant throughout your life, with only the relative proportions of them shifting with diet changes. In contrast, antibiotics often kill a strain of a few off completely, while suppressing everything else except for a few strains that resist the antibiotic, which also creates a massive opportunity for new bacteria to colonize. And these deficits are partially heritable."
Cultural Dietary Habits and Health Outcomes
The discussion touches upon specific cultural dietary practices and their potential health correlations, with a focus on Korean consumption of kimchi.
- 0cf8612b2e1e asks: "Koreans live off of fermented kimchi, something like 80+ pounds per person every year. Do Koreans have lower incidence of gut complications?"
- hungmung speculates: "I bet they've got lower rates of hep than America, but that probably doesn't have anything to do with the kimchi."
- ginko counters with a different health concern: "They have a much higher stomach cancer rate."
- astrange attributes this to other factors: "They also drink like fish and eat hot foods. Both of those are known contributors."
Pharmaceutical Development from Natural Products
One user highlights the potential for developing drugs from natural sources, including the gut microbiome, but points out the challenges in this area, particularly the focus on prevention over treatment of existing disease.
- wdwvt1 shares their startup experience: "My former startup (Interface Biosciences) was trying to develop a process for identifying and developing these as traditional pharmaceuticals (e.g. small molecule drugs). One of the big problems with most of these metabolites is that they work better in preventing the emergence of disease pathology than they do in ameliorating it. In other words, they aren't super reverse causal for disease. You'll note that in this study, the design was pretreatment with the beneficial metabolite to prevent injury, rather than rescue once injury occurred."
- They also add: "Natural products are the source of over 50% of approved drugs (though weighted heavily towards antibiotics), and the gut microbiome has really not been explored enough for its natural products."