This discussion centers around the terminology of surveillance systems, the pricing and features of a new open-source application called "Clearcam," and recommendations for existing camera hardware and software solutions.
CCTV vs. IP Cameras and Terminology
A primary point of discussion is the nomenclature used for modern surveillance systems, specifically whether "CCTV" is still an appropriate term for systems that use IP networks. Some users suggest the term is outdated given the shift to IP, while others note its continued use due to its "optics" and broader recognition.
- "CCTV” has better optics than “surveillance camera”," stated teddyh.
- nixass questioned, "Better as in better lenses?"
- johnisgood pondered, "Or better look (as in spyware vs CCTV). Curious, too!"
- schobi provided a technical definition, remarking, "Closed circuit television (CCTV) is a term to describe video transmission that is not broadcast. Traditionally with BNC cables going to a control room, monitors and recorders. I think this software-only post is meant for IP cameras / surveillance cameras. Internet is the oposite of closed circuit."
- diggan offered a clarifying perspective as a non-native speaker: "I think in this case, IP is referring to IP from TCP/IP, meaning "The Internet Protocol", not necessarily over/through "public internet links", so as long as you're only within your own local network/WAN, wouldn't that still be CCTV then? Or maybe the "closed circuit" thing is more of a physical property than I read it to be?"
- jsheard highlighted a practical application for IP cameras on a closed network: "It's even recommended when building out a CCTV system with cheap Chinese IP cameras that like to phone home all the time. Stick 'em on a VLAN which can't access anything besides your local NVR."
Clearcam's Pricing, Features, and HN Presentation
Significant attention is given to the commercial aspects of the Clearcam application. Users are seeking clarity on its pricing model, the distinction between free and paid features, and the best way to present such information on Hacker News. The discussion touches upon HN guidelines regarding self-promotion.
- BubbleRings inquired, "So the app is free to download from the Apple site, and will run free, and is open source, but you have in-app purchases, and certain features can’t be used until you pay for them, is that right? What are the paid features and what are the costs? Do I have to install the app to see the list of paid features and costs?"
- The developer, roryclear, explained, "Paid features are Live and event clip viewing over the internet, and receiving iOS notifications. You're paying for use of my server in those cases though, not for features I've made closed source. You can edit the code to use your own server if you wish too. I'm new to HN and thought shilling the paid stuff violates the rules, so I didn't mention them."
- lukan reassured the developer, "“I'm new to HN and thought shilling the paid stuff violates the rules, so I didn't mention them.” HN ain't a non profit charity, but is the forum of a venture capitalist company, so talking about paid things does not violate any rules."
- all2 offered a nuanced view: "Paying for things does cause some folks to champ at the bit, though, so his assessment is not unwarranted."
- dang, a moderator, confirmed the rules: "(I'm a mod here) - it's fine to talk about paid features, as long as it's clear which ones are paid and which ones not. The only thing that wouldn't be fine is to post a Show HN with no way to try the product out (https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html) and you're fine on that part."
- diggan summarized the perceived differences in pricing: "Seems these are pretty major differences of what you can do for free with Frigate, but if you use Clearcam, you need to pay for "Clearcam Premium": - View your live camera feeds remotely. - Receive notifications on events (objects/people detected). - View event clips remotely. - End-to-end encryption on all data."
- baruz clarified the developer's intent regarding payments: "The author states elsewhere that the payments are for the use of their server, which can be reconfigured."
- bdcravens pointed out a potential user experience issue with account setup: "Am I reading your README correct, that in order to sign up to use the app on Android, you have to install and sign up using an iOS device (using Apple's payment system) and then login on Android using the credentials you created?" roryclear acknowledged, "Yeah sorry that’s confusing, I need to change or remove it until I’ve a payment system setup."
Open Source and Privacy-Focused Camera Hardware & Software Recommendations
A significant portion of the discussion revolves around finding reliable, high-quality camera hardware and accompanying open-source software stacks that do not contain spyware or require mandatory cloud services. Users share recommendations and discuss the merits of various brands and approaches.
- waschl sought recommendations: "Anyone can recommend a good quality camera without spyware and ideally open sw stack. I am willing to do it myself with little soldering etc."
- biinjo suggested: "What about the Ubiquity gear? It’s maybe not AS open as you would prefer but no spyware and required cloud services is a big win in my book."
- dns_snek pointed to a resource for open-source firmware: "Depending on your definition of "good quality", you might find this project useful: https://thingino.com/ Most cameras on that list are low cost, typically with 4-5MP sensors. They don't compete on the high end in terms of image quality but you will have an open source firmware stack with root access over SSH."
- mysteria recommended a specific brand with caveats: "It's not open source but used Axis cameras are pretty cheap and have rtsp and onvif support. Those mostly come from commercial installs and can be configured offline using a web interface." rkagerer added, "Axis cameras are great. Their product support is awful."
- giobox emphasized a general security principle: "The best option is just to assume any IPCam is unsafe and firewall them off in my experience; even with a fully open source camera stack connecting it directly to internet is not that great a practice. Put them on a no internet access VLAN and you can largely buy whatever cheap IPCams you want, etc etc. If you want remote access you should expose the server running the camera management software/NVR securely, not the cams." He further detailed his setup: "This is basically how I run Frigate at home today, with only the NVR able to reach the camera IPs on my no web access “internet of nothing” VLAN."
- snickerdoodle12 offered a simpler suggestion: "reolink is acceptable."
- brk expressed skepticism about open software in high-end hardware: "Nothing good has an open software stack. There are some brands (eg: Axis, Bosch, Hanwha), that support 3rd party apps that can run on the camera and perform various tasks, including AI applications. Any product that would fall under the good quality segment is primarily targeted at the commercial market, and nobody there is looking for open software."
Clearcam vs. Frigate and ML Runtime Support
A recurring comparison is made between Clearcam and the established Frigate NVR, particularly concerning features, ease of setup, and machine learning (ML) capabilities, including GPU support.
- snickerdoodle12 directly asked, "how does this compare with frigate?"
- roryclear responded, "fewer features, easier setup, with more GPUs supported. (I've not used frigate myself though, only watched videos)"
- diggan followed up on GPU support: "Where can I find the list of supported GPUs? Frigate been able to handle everything I've tried so far, all from Nvidia and AMD GPUs to even Intel iGPUs."
- roryclear elaborated on his ML framework preference: "Maybe my view of frigate and tensorflow (assuming frigate still uses it) is outdated then. I’m referring to tinygrad vs tensorflow when I say GPU support, of course google’s tensorflow is best for google’s TPUs. I’ve had better luck using tinygrad on my personal devices, but I am biased as it’s been a while since I’ve used tensorflow"
- threecheese suggested highlighting this differentiation: "This would be a good point of differentiation to make on your GitHub page or for a technical audience on your website. Frigate is SOTA in many folks minds, and to show that you are using tinygrad over tensorflow may be a good “modern-ness” signal for that audience. Edit: another solution in this space shows a list of supported ML runtimes, which would be good info for folks wanting to run on specific hardware. https://github.com/boquila/boquilahub"
- roryclear noted the practical challenges of ML runtime support: "Supported runtimes list would be nice, but I don't have access to much hardware to test on. I aim to remove most dependencies and support anything that can run tinygrad + ffmpeg"
- serf mentioned specific hardware support: "same here -- it's also among one of the only things to support Coral devices and RPi video cores."
- jdiaz97 introduced an alternative project: "BoquilaHUB also does this, but with Rust: https://github.com/boquila/boquilahub/"