The contrarian physics podcast subculture

Here's a summary of the themes expressed in the Hacker News discussion:

Critique of Sabine Hossenfelder's Shift in Content and Credibility

Many users express that Sabine Hossenfelder, who was initially appreciated for her nuanced and sincere content, has moved towards a more pop-science, sensationalist, and at times, fear-mongering approach. Several point to her venturing into non-expert areas as a decline in quality.

• "But later, I think the pressure of creating constant content, and moving into non-expert areas, has gotten just as pop-sci as anybody else." - FrustratedMonky
• "I think 'just as pop-sci' is a bit generous." - depr
• "Obviously people can have opinions on anything, and of course you can't be an expert on everything, but I feel like what Sabine does goes beyond "having an opinion"; she seems to have pivoted into fear-mongering about academia." - tombert
• "I also noticed that her shows were starting to significantly diverge from her area of expertise and she was weighing in on much broader topics, something in her early shows she often criticised scientists for ('don't think because someone is an expert in A that he can judge B')." - cycomanic
• "At some point she weighted in on some topics where I'm an expert or at least have significant insights and I realised that she is largely talking without any understanding, often being wrong (although difficult to ascertain for nonexperts)." - cycomanic
• "This is a very good summary of the evolution of her writings and videos. Unfortunately it seems many many people still see her as the best source of scientific truth." - f137
• "I'd also say that scientifically non-respectable theories finding big traction in the online influencer space is the norm, and not especially difficult to explain." - gwd
• "Sabine's grift is artificial controversy rather than some unified theory, but at least she is willing to discuss it and cares about her public image." - nurettin
• "I think it's a lesson that we all consistently fail to apply to ourselves. It is so pervasive on social media - HN included - yet it's something we only attribute to others. Our hot takes on quantum physics, molecular biology, and economics are always reasonable and rooted in keen insights." - xenotux
• "I also specifically want to promote Curt Juimangals podcast TOE here despite the disparaging remarks in post (which are concerning but represent one point of view) - he deserves better and wider distribution than just this hacker news post" - AIorNot
• "I also noticed exactly the same thing with Sabine. Her spiral into crankery has been disappointing. It's very pleasant to see someone else saying it, too. Thank you." - antitrustizer

Criticism of Eric Weinstein's Scientific Contributions and Approach

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on skepticism regarding Eric Weinstein's contributions to physics, his perceived lack of substance, and his methods of promoting his work. He is often described as a "crackpot" or someone who engages in "big thinkies" rather than actual science.

• "I always thought Weinstein was a creep but he’s a physics crackpot too?" - PaulHoule
• "Still think she is on another level from Eric who will throw out any crazy idea he can if someone will listen." - FrustratedMonky
• "He is definitely in the 'conspiracy of nefarious forces are aligned against me' camp." - FrustratedMonky
• "I also have no idea why the hell she thinks it's a good idea to try and simp for Eric Weinstein who, as far as I can tell, hasn't made any significant contribution to physics and primarily exists to add an air of credibility to right-wing talking points." - tombert
• "I am sure that Eric Weinstein is good at a specific niche of physics, he does have a real PhD from a good school, but he's using that status to try and branch out into stuff he has no fucking clue about." - tombert
• "I also don't think that Eric Weinstein is being censored by no one taking his attempt at Unified Field Theory seriously." - tombert
• "Paul Houle: The real root of brokenness in physics is not bad ideas or a lack of good ideas but it is that experiments are nowhere near being able to answer the big questions." - PaulHoule
• "From having done that work but also having an interest in the phenomenon, being too well read of a person to make it in academia, and personally meeting more than my share of lunatics, that it is really a psychiatric phenomenon really a subtype of paranoia" - PaulHoule
• "> Weinstein released his Geometric Unity paper on April 1, debuting it on Joe Rogan’s podcast. We live in deeply unserious times." - padjo
• "i mean he's not a physicist of any sort so i don't think there's anything amiss about this? the "deeply unserious" part is that people can't (refuse to?) recognize that he's not a physicist." - almostgotcaught
• "He did a lecture. Not sure if you can still find it on Youtube, because IIRC, he published a paper and then redacted it. From what I can tell it was bits of old fashioned differential geometry and a whole lot of hand waving." - dachworker
• "Weinstein = Wannabe Einstein" - amai
• "But the other common denominator is Nguyen. Knowing absolutely nothing about either the content of these papers or the people involved, a priori, which is more probable: That Weinstein, who has been unable (by his own account) to be taken seriously by academia, has this massive influence across this diverse set of influencers? Or that the results of these interactions actually have something more to do with Nguyen -- either a weakness in his paper, or a quirk of communication, or a vein of unreasonableness in his character, that each person eventually runs across?" - gwd
• "If Weinstein believed there was an issue with Nguyen’s personality or this was all a misunderstanding, he would not have avoided going on multiple podcasts to clear the air. That Nguyen has a character flaw would immediately be apparent in a long form interview." - janalsncm
• "Weinstein acts a lot more like a snake oil salesman." - czzprr
• "The phrase "Fake it until you make it" has become "Weinstein until you Einstein"" - below a YouTube video
• "every time Eric Weinstein explains something: "I could not think of a more complicated way to explain this"" - below a YouTube video
• "Eric Weinstein is the Steven Seagal of Physics" - below a YouTube video
• "I think that’s a pity and we need to acknowledge the great value they all these podcasts bring instead of just complaining about audience capture and various biases of one - we’re all human - if Einstein or Newton had or was on a podcast we’d be criticizing it just the same IMHO." - AIorNot
• "This specific issue in this case is a concerning one in that I do think Weinstein s throwing his weight around to suppress as he can, but honestly it doesn’t seem to be working for given all publicity critiquing him either" - AIorNot
• "The problem is that his paper doesn’t make testable predictions. It’s a complicated exercise in world building, not science. A physics paper has well-defined terms and equations. Things that can be tested." - janalsncm
• "He said himself that it’s entertainment. He isn’t being suppressed by the DISC (“distributed ideas suppression complex”), it just turns out that fiction is a tough industry, readership is declining, and it’s a little too involved for an airport bookstore." - janalsncm
• "If you make an unfalsifiable claim about a teapot orbiting Jupiter, you’re not a genius whose theories are being ignored by the establishment." - janalsncm
• "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” - Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science
• "Weinstein comes across very badly." - hermitcrab
• "The problem is basically that the information that gets encoded in papers and public datasets is not spanning! There's a shocking amount of fiddly details that don't get transmitted for one reason or another." - MengerSponge

The "Expertise Creep" and Misuse of Authority

A recurring theme is the tendency of individuals, particularly those with expertise in one field (like physics), to overextend their authority and offer opinions in areas where they lack qualifications. This is seen as a form of intellectual dishonesty or a consequence of the "attention economy" on platforms like YouTube.

• "Something I've noticed is people who are extremely talented in one field will sometimes think they're extremely talented in every field." - tombert
• "I have no doubt at all that she understands her niche of physics better than most other humans on the planet, but that doesn't really translate to most other fields." - tombert
• "I also have no idea why the hell she thinks it's a good idea to try and simp for Eric Weinstein who, as far as I can tell, hasn't made any significant contribution to physics and primarily exists to add an air of credibility to right-wing talking points." - tombert
• "A PhD basically means that you were willing and able to work really really hard for a certain amount of time on a very specific subject. Being smart helps but I don't think that's sufficient; I think most people could get a PhD if they were willing to do the work for it. Importantly though, PhDs are extremely focused; in a strange way saying that you have a PhD in physics sort of makes you less qualified to talk about biology." - tombert
• "Exactly she used to say this all the time and now she's weighing in on topics ranging from EVs to nuclear power to 5G causing cancer (yes she did a show on that, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOvAZPHDogs and she was peddling to the "sceptic" crowd by saying that "she doesn't have any reason to believe that it's is unsafe, but ..." and pointing to doctors saying smoking was save in the 50s)." - cycomanic
• "Sadly this is a common path for many people on Youtube. Once they reach a certain level of popularity the original topic of their channel becomes a vehicle for 'content creation' which they try to maximize for 'engagement'. The quality of the original content always nosedives." - indy
• "For content creators there is a lot of economic incentive. Real science is kind of boring and mundane while controversy is exciting and sells." - vjvjvjvjghv
• "It’s not up to Neil DeGrasse Tyson what makes it into the Standard Model, and if I had to guess he’s probably not up on cutting edge research anyways. The relevant question is whether a new theory can explain empirical results better than existing theories. The fact that Weinstein’s paper doesn’t even attempt to do that puts it into the category of creative writing, not science." - janalsncm
• "It is so pervasive on social media - HN included - yet it's one that we only attribute to others. Our hot takes on quantum physics, molecular biology, and economics are always reasonable and rooted in keen insights." - xenotux
• "It's a lot easier to be a contrarian in someone else's." - xenotux

The Role of "Audience Capture" and the YouTube Algorithm

Several users highlight the concept of "audience capture," where content creators tailor their output to please their audience and maximize engagement, often leading to a degradation of quality and a shift away from original expertise. The YouTube algorithm and its incentives are frequently blamed for this phenomenon.

• "For anyone who doesn't already know, the term for the phenomenon is 'audience capture'." - thomassmith65
• "Sadly this is a common path for many people on Youtube. Once they reach a certain level of popularity the original topic of their channel becomes a vehicle for "content creation" which they try to maximize for "engagement". The quality of the original content always nosedives." - indy
• "It’s a symptom of scientific illiteracy, that people can’t see that a work of creative writing that makes no testable predictions about the world isn’t science." - janalsncm
• "It’s a symptom of scientific illiteracy, that people can’t see that a work of creative writing that makes no testable predictions about the world isn’t science." - janalsncm
• "The problem is that people are really trying to acquire it inevitably become covered in and completely full of...shit." - nitzer
• "It's a lesson that we all consistently fail to apply to ourselves. It is so pervasive on social media - HN included - yet it's something we only attribute to others. Our hot takes on quantum physics, molecular biology, and economics are always reasonable and rooted in keen insights." - xenotux
• "The problem is that people are really trying to acquire it inevitably become covered in and completely full of...shit." - nitzer
• "That particular meaning of "audience capture" might be Weinstein's coinage, but the term itself predates that; you can just search Google Scholar to confirm." - tptacek
• "It’s one of those “the house always wins” setups. For a while if you have success and integrity, you wag the algorithm. Eventually though, the algorithm always ends up wagging you." - m_fayer
• "i kinda think we should blame the youtube alg for this, the algs set incentives which shape behavior at scale, and it’s not like one can make a living doing actual physics these days" - dustingetz

The "Crisis in Physics" Narrative and its Validity

The discussion touches upon the idea of a "crisis in physics," with differing opinions on whether such a crisis exists and how it relates to the emergence of figures like Hossenfelder and Weinstein. Some argue that the lack of experimental breakthroughs is the real issue, while others defend the current state of physics.

• "The real root of brokenness in physics is not bad ideas or a lack of good ideas but it is that experiments are nowhere near being able to answer the big questions." - PaulHoule
• "But, as I understand it, Weinstein simply isn't "doing science". He's "doing big thinkies" and then complaining when the world doesn't snap to attention. That problem has not much at all to do with his specific ideas." - tptacek
• "Perhaps you would agree with Weinstein and Hossenfelder that physics today is broken. But that does not in itself prove that the people peddling alternatives aren't even worse." - arduanika
• "The physics community manages to organize things such that a few people can work on fundamental physics on the side but their numbers are basically determined by demand for teaching with is unrelated to the situation in research." - PaulHoule
• "The problem vs biology or chemistry is simply that we've picked all the low hanging (=low energy) experimental fruit. To probe deeper simply requires access to energies that are far from readily available and thus extremely expensive and complex." - xoa
• "She has had valid criticisms of the industry -and it is an entrenched industry like others. Basically the momentum that keeps something going beyond its usefulness but keeping it going keeps the money rolling in. I admire her willingness to make those people irked even though it brings flak along with it." - mc32
• "As a counterbalance to the "renegade" character of these kinds of podcasts I do recommend Sean Carroll's Mindscape podcast. He does a good job representing the "establishment" position in physics, so to speak. A good episode to start with is "The Crisis in Physics" in which he (unusually?) argues that there is no real crisis in physics." - antognini

The Nature of Scientific Discourse and Criticism

The discussion debates how scientific ideas should be debated, the role of personal attacks, the validity of criticism against established fields, and the ethical implications of how ideas are presented to the public. The concept of "scientific grifting" is also a prominent concern.

• "Never saw a real physicist threaten a lawsuit over criticism of criticism but the paranoid and delusional do it all the time." - PaulHoule
• "Science progresses one funeral at a time" - NitpickLawyer
• "From a physics point of view, I think what we have is that nobody is interested in it. It's like the concept of 'the emperor has no clothes' when applied to science." - PaulHoule
• "Personally, I think that the scientific enterprise has undermined itself already. Look at how we lost decades of research in alzheimer's as a good example." - throwawaymaths
• "When something turns out to be a valid idea, guess that wasn't sketchy. When something turns out to be wild goose chase, guess that was sketchy, why did we do that? You don't know the winning paths until you take them. But complaining that some wrong paths were taken, isn't the solution." - FrustratedMonky
• "Being a contrarian is often an intellectually dishonest way to seek power. Goes all the way back to the serpent in Adam and Eve." - deepfriedchokes
• "Point out that something is bullshit is valuable in science, even if you don't have a better theory." - amanaaplanacanal
• "Sure, but just going around and calling everything bullshit without any expertise is not valuable is just grifting." - cycomanic
• "The endorsement system was my work." - PaulHoule
• "Crackpots don’t ever seem to find out that there is a big mystery in how cuprate semiconductors superconduct or what determines how proteins fold or even that there is such a thing as condensed-matter physics (e.g. most of it!)" - PaulHoule
• "Crackpots almost always work alone, contrasted to real physicists who work with other physicists which was the basis for the endorsement system." - PaulHoule
• "From having done that work but also having an interest in the phenomenon, being too well read of a person to make it in academia, and personally meeting more than my share of lunatics, that it is really a psychiatric phenomenon really a subtype of paranoia" - PaulHoule
• "It boggles my mind that Weinstein threatened a lawsuit over criticism of his ideas, something I’ve never heard of a real scientist doing —- I mean, scientific truth is outside the jurisdiction of the courts." - PaulHoule
• "But then, the problem is that "their own bullshit papers" is doing a very heavy lifting here. The point of Hossenfelder is that String Theory is as bad as GU. But is it really the case? Hossenfelder keep saying it's true, but a lot of people are not convinced by her arguments and provide convincing reasons for not being convinced." - cauch
• "Even if you don't know String Theory, you should ask "did she even consider that maybe there are differences in the level of bullshit-ness that make some people criticize GU and not String Theory"." - cauch
• "If Weinstein was serious about his work, he would either respond to the criticism or revise his position to something which is useful. It shouldn’t be our job to dissect his theory to find what can be salvaged." - janalsncm
• "I think there's a "cult of physics personalities" that don't appreciate when /any/ public attention is given to fringe ideas from outsiders like Eric. I honestly think that they're the most responsible for giving Eric's theories the credibility and air time they have received. Had they taken a more professional and earnest approach to his and others work I doubt it would even be a topic of discussion on "popular social interest" programs like Joe Rogan or Piers Morgan." - themafia
• "But I think that’s a pity and we need to acknowledge the great value they all these podcasts bring instead of just complaining about audience capture and various biases of one - we’re all human - if Einstein or Newton had or was on a podcast we’d be criticizing it just the same IMHO." - AIorNot
• "Tim is the only side willing to publish papers and let them be peer reviewed. He’s also the only one willing to engage on the merits of the debate. Eric has/will not." - WhitneyLand
• "Science communicators should stick to talking about well-established or at least peer reviewed results. They do not need to be peddling fringe crackpottery." - dawnofdusk
• "I think this field is poorly understood by 98% of the commenters, so it’s impossible to decide who is wrong or right based on the science alone, so even neutral parties like Sabine Hossfender are now getting their comeuppance for being on the “wrong” side of political groupthink." - nis0s
• "When I was in the physics world, almost every high energy guy I talked to thought string theory was a scam. It seems like everyone that wasn't a string theorist thought it was scam. I don't know enough of the topic to know one way or the other, but it seemed a common idea." - ecshafer
• "I don't think it’s appropriate to use anonymity to criticize published research." - nis0s
• "The phrase "Fake it until you make it" has become "Weinstein until you Einstein"" - below a YouTube video
• "The problem is that in our society, science is viewed as an authority, where Scientists can pontificate as "experts" without having to back up their claims with a predictive track record, is a bug, not a feature." - pdonis
• "All the best scientists release their work on Joe Rogan and threaten to sue anyone who criticizes their work." - hermitcrab
• "Do they lose moral agency? Having practical reasons to take an action is not the same as ceding moral agency. We are not perfect creatures and sometimes do immoral things, for various reasons. But we did those things, nobody else did them." - shermantanktop
• "She—Hossenfelder—is absolutely the BS detector and takedown machine that physics needs :)" - throwmeaway222