HN Distilled

Essential insights from Hacker News discussions

The US is now the largest investor in commercial spyware

Original Article

Hacker News Discussion

Here's a summary of the themes from the Hacker News discussion, presented with markdown headers and direct quotes:

The US as a Leading Investor in Commercial Spyware

Numerous users discuss the initial premise that the US is the top investor in commercial spyware. Some view this as a strategic move for national security and maintaining a global intelligence advantage, while others express concern about the nature of this investment.

  • "Wow, didn’t know the U.S. is now the top investor in commercial spyware clearly a big push for cyber defense and global intelligence edge. Essentially, it’s about maintaining an edge in cyber operations and national security." - RianAtheer
  • "The U.S likely sees commercial spyware not just as a tool for spying, but as a strategic investment to keep up with global cyber threats." - RianAtheer
  • "Americans should be happy that the US government is the biggest player. Would you prefer to have China or Russia or the Middle East be the biggest player?" - dadrian
  • "The headline can't be taken at face value. 'Largest' is based on the number of investing entities (including individuals), not something more objective like dollars invested." - nycdatasci

Accusations of US and Israeli Cyber Supremacy and Threat

A counter-argument emerges, suggesting that the US and Israel, rather than being victims or simply investors, are themselves significant global cyber threats, particularly in their targeting of individuals.

  • "US and Israel are the the global cyber threat." - OutOfHere
  • "Yes, but with rare exceptions, China doesn't exercise much power to lock up someone, or to disempower someone, at least so long as you don't visit China. Meanwhile, the US and Israel are well known to target individuals both domestically and around the world irrespective of their affiliation." - OutOfHere

China's State-Sponsored Cyber Activities and Coercive Tactics

The discussion touches upon China's cyber capabilities and its methods of exerting influence and control, including its international policing outposts and the potential for punishing individuals by targeting their families in China.

  • "What about China? Salt typhoon was just one among many actual attacks, not just threats, connected back to the Chinese state." - SilverElfin
  • "Yes, but with rare exceptions, China doesn't exercise much power to lock up someone, or to disempower someone, at least so long as you don't visit China. Meanwhile, the US and Israel are well known to target individuals both domestically and around the world irrespective of their affiliation." - OutOfHere
  • "They have the power to arrest people in China. Any Chinese outside of China could have their family still in China arrested." - ImJamal
  • "China definitely has international policing outposts that are meant to cast their power outside their borders." - SilverElfin
  • "Telling someone their family is going to get it if they keep doing what they do is quite some distance away from... straight up bombing them." - lmz

The Scale and Nature of State Surveillance and Control

A significant theme revolves around the expansion of state surveillance and its link to the definition and control of "crime." Some users argue that increased surveillance necessitates the expansion of criminal definitions to justify its cost, leading to a potentially Orwellian future where dissent is criminalized.

  • "As surveillance increases the definition of crime will expand. Consider the incentives. Surveillance is costly. The only way to justify increasing surveillance costs is to demonstrate increasing intervention in criminal activity. If traditional crime is reduced, new crimes need to be introduced." - bregma
  • "Once all the enemies of the state have been eliminated, it becomes mandatory to introduce new enemies of the state so they, too, can be rounded up. Eventually there will be no one left to come for and the surveillance technology will go unmonitored." - bregma
  • "The problem is that when laws no longer apply to certain individuals in our government, we no longer have rule of law at all, because a law is inherently universal. The US is rotting from the head." - mrtesthah
  • "One might be tempted towards the conclusion that dystopian surveillance doesn't materially impact crime rates and that if we want to solve the latter, we need a different solution than the former." - roughly
  • "I feel like we have the worst of both worlds; dystopian surveillance, yet massive crime issues still." - Group_B

The Role of US Tech Companies and Data Collection

Concerns are raised about US-based technology companies, particularly those controlling critical infrastructure like CPUs and wireless chipsets, as potential vectors for government data collection and backdoor access. Major tech giants are even labeled as "commercial spyware."

  • "Honestly, I imagine that other nations should be very concerned about the small number of US based companies creating all the CPUs which could easily be backdoored. Same for the blackbox wireless chipsets our phones depend on too." - autoexec
  • "That and so many of the companies that people depend on are in the US (Google, Amazon, social media, Apple, MS, etc) since you have to think that the US government is collecting massive amounts of data from those places." - autoexec
  • "Google and FB are commercial spyware." - mensetmanusman
  • "Microsoft Teams and O365 suite are as well." - reactordev
  • "Mostly because $FAV_TECH_COMPANY constantly tells me they love privacy. They fight back doors in court, they rush out security patches and closely coordinate with the government to ensure I'm safe." - bigyabai

Circumventing Oversight and Legal Gray Areas in Spyware Procurement

A point of contention is the idea that governments might contract with commercial spyware firms specifically to bypass the legal and ethical oversight associated with direct government cyber operations. This raises questions about deniability and legal gray areas when employers contract third parties to access employee data.

  • "A purpose for contracting with these firms is to evade the significant legal oversight present in the NSA, CIA, and FBI computer network exploitation programs." - linkregister
  • "It is illegal for an employer to hack your phone." - dadrian
  • "It is why the employer contracts the hacking firm to do it all for them. Meanwhile, the employer has deniability. The employer receives reports of your data and activities as accessed by the firm. That is the whole point. It's a legal gray area. Being naive and daft about it doesn't help." - OutOfHere

Perceptions of US Governance, Freedom, and Crime

The discussion includes juxtaposed views on the US, with some users feeling the nation suffers from both "dystopian surveillance" and persistent crime issues, questioning the effectiveness of current approaches. Others maintain that a degree of freedom still exists, even within this context, though the future sustainability of this balance is questioned.

  • "Gotta love the good old US of A. I feel like we have the worst of both worlds; dystopian surveillance, yet massive crime issues still. An amazing world we live in." - Group_B
  • "At least you have freedom… in some sense." - kubb
  • "I suspect that in the very near future, the latter will dramatically decrease and the former dramatically increase. I wonder how that tradeoff will be perceived." - generalizations
  • "No he means crime will dramatically decrease and surveillance will increase. I’d be inclined to agree." - wil421