The Nature of Apprenticeship vs. Classroom Learning
A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the fundamental differences and relative merits of apprenticeship models compared to traditional classroom education. Users debated whether apprenticeship's effectiveness stems from one-on-one instruction, practical application, or a combination thereof.
- "TFA misses a key difference between apprenticeship and classroom learning. Apprentice training tends to be one-on-one." - wrp
- "School teaches you about things; apprenticeships teach you to do things. Huge difference." - RataNova
- "Classroom education allows a plethora of secondary skills to be trained without the pressure of performance. For some, it's essential." - khalic
The "Two Sigma Problem" and One-on-One Instruction
The concept of the "two sigma problem," which suggests that one-on-one tutoring can dramatically improve learning outcomes, was frequently brought up. Many users agreed that personalized guidance is highly beneficial, although some questioned whether it's the sole driver of success or if other factors are at play.
- "When classroom instruction is done one-on-one, learning dramatically improves. This is called the 'two sigma problem' in the educational literature." - wrp
- "I would wager the benefits of this model come mostly from the 2 sigma boost one gets from one on one instruction and not from any sort of optimal skill tree progression a master would impart on a student in a pedagogical environment engineered for optimal knowledge and skill acquisition." - paulgerhardt
- "If it wasn't for all the pitfalls and hallucinations (and even then there is probably something to be had already) LLMs would be perfect for this. Limitless customizable one-on-one tutoring." - danielbln
- "Yeah, while the article makes good arguments about learning by doing and context-rich environments, it probably understates how much of the effectiveness comes down to just personalized guidance" - RataNova
The Importance of Practice and Active Learning
The crucial role of active practice and "learning by doing" was a strong theme. Several users shared personal anecdotes to illustrate how hands-on experience and working through problems, even with limited direct instruction, led to deeper learning than passive observation.
- "Practice is extremely important, and I don't think its importance is exaggerated at all." - throw10920
- "I would expect students in an environment with a typically high student-to-teacher ratio, but who actually practice what they're being taught, will significantly outperform students who are taught one-on-one by a personal tutor but rarely actually perform the thing that they're trying to learn." - throw10920
- "But tutoring isn't obviously superior to practice." - throw10920
- "Good tutoring will essentially be practice and worked problems with instant feedback -- not an individual 'lecture'." - jonahx
- "I learned in college that I didn't learn anything until I worked the problem sets. (It always seemed like I learned it, but when faced with the problem sets I discovered I hadn't learned anything yet.)" - WalterBright
- "You can watch a yootoob video on rebuilding a carburetor all day, but you don't know nuttin until you take it apart yourself." - WalterBright
- "Even manufacturing without instructions gives you practice. Also you need only so much instructions per practice, getting instructions won't actually help you get better you also need to do it." - 1718627440
- "syphia: I'm not sure if concerete seeing/doing is the only, or even most effective, way to learn." - syphia
Skepticism Regarding Historical Accuracy and Romanticization of the Past
Some users expressed skepticism about the factual claims made in the original article and cautioned against romanticizing historical apprenticeship models. Concerns were raised about the accuracy of historical anecdotes and the potential for exploitation in past systems.
- "I find it telling that right in the first paragraph it says “People in the middle ages lit cats on fire for fun” as a fact, while it is, in the most charitable interpretation, something historians disagree on (and in the least charitable interpretation, it smells like bullshit from a mile)." - gattilorenz
- "I certainly am skeptical of someone taking Wikipedia as the Truth." - gattilorenz
- "Medieval craftsmen often ran what we would consider to be sweatshops, with many young (i.e. child) apprentices banging out work and not receiving much instruction in exchange. We're romanticizing and idealizing a past that was, in realty, often quite exploitative." - beloch
- "The romanticism around apprenticeships misses how tricky it is to scale personalized, practical instruction without either underpaying the instructor or pricing out the learner" - RataNova
- "Zobat: > Human beings, it appears, are nearly unique in the animal world for being able to learn something by watching somebody else do it. This is just blatantly wrong. If nothing else I myself have shown dogs how to solve problems, but here's a link to Wikipedia for good measure." - Zobat
The Role of Mastery and Intrinsic Motivation
The concept of requiring mastery before progressing was discussed as a key factor in effective learning, with some arguing that this in itself is a powerful driver, regardless of the teaching method.
- "But I think this challenges the concept that it has anything to do with 1 on 1 attention. But rather the outcome seems practically tautological - a good way to get people to perform to the point of mastery is to require that they perform to the point of mastery. Of course, at scale, all you're really doing is weeding out the people that are unable to achieve mastery." - somenameforme
- "The master very much cares about your quality, because if it doesn't look like his quality nobody will buy it." - 1718627440
Modern Apprenticeships and Alternatives
The discussion also touched on the current state of apprenticeships, their prevalence in Europe (particularly Germany), and the potential of modern technologies like LLMs to offer personalized tutoring.
- "Apprenticeship is alive and well across Europe, most famously probably in Germany. The majority of young adults there completes one." - chmod775
- "Honestly, it's not worth your time, a lot of presumptions, false premises and incomplete hypothesis. Also, apprenticeship didn't disappear, it's still very much in use in many countries. The focus is just different." - khalic
- "Fortunately this model is still partially used for some careers like medicine and veterinary practices where you have a mandatory internship of at least a year before you can be admitted as a practicing GP or Vet." - dwd
Education as a System and Societal Structures
A more critical perspective on education was also presented, suggesting that compulsory education can be influenced by societal power structures and the desire to maintain knowledge gaps.
- "compulsory education is a main pillar of the twisted power structure in our society. power in society comes from a knowledge gap, and powerful people have all the incentives to sustain it. consequently education is a battleground, and we, the honest people, have pretty much lost the battles for about a century now." - attila-lendvai